YOUTH

You all pretty much covered everything that I think.  I just have a few comments.

First of all, I am surprised at the huge youth budgets.  I remember being in a bigger ward and the FIGHT for money that went on every year (and how much money we were getting - wow!).  Now in a tiny branch/ward we hardly even turn in receipts because we know the ward budget is minimal.  Seeing tithing funds used for non-essentials bothers me.

Misfit's problems with EFY and Youth Conf. are lame.  I loved my experiences and consider them as vital.  That is where I found out that I wasn't the only one in the world with my beliefs.  My stake activities were the monthly times when I didn't feel like a total pariah.  Even if socialization was the only thing happening at that event, it was still good for me to be there.  Is the music overly emotional?  Yes.  Did it support me as I went through rough times in high school?  Again, yes.  Listening to MoTab wasn't cutting it. 

Andrea, I totally share your deep concern about us failing our youth in helping them develop their testimonies.  In my opinion, it is a HUGE problem.  I remember what our young men's program was like when I was in Mutual.  Let's see...basketball, basketball...and, oh yes, more basketball.  Not really testimony building.  Also, remember when the new dance cards/standards came out?  Our leaders had a blow up fight in front of us about those.  Our young men's president wanted us to pander to the lowest common denominator (which included his son), while the young women's president thought we should aim for the higher standard.  Honestly, if we had lowered our standards those kids wouldn't have come anyway.  If they really want to be there, they will rise up and meet the standard.

This year at Girls' Camp my husband came back from "testimony" meeting just horrified at the thanktimonies/therapy session that went on.  But the Stake President thought it was beautiful.  I think he felt like these girls are living so ALONE.  So many of them are the only members in their families and they are struggling to live the Gospel in a world that's constantly telling them that they are wrong and that the abusive/alcoholic families that they're from are the best that they can hope for.  Sometimes those emotional meetings are what get them through.  It might not be ideal, but it's not necessarily a bad thing.  Different perspectives.

Do not get me started on the Scouting program, where a man leaves his family one or two weekends a month to help the young men.  What about his daughters, small children, and pregnant wife?  If that does not interfere directly with family unity and activities, I don’t know what does.

I do think that sometimes Scout Leaders put the program before their families.  They should not be giving up vacation time (as my brother in law and my husband have done).  It's a support program.  Not the be all, end all.

When it comes to our youth and what we need to do for them, I feel very strongly that doing our part to bring the Spirit to a lesson/activity is what makes the difference.  I think as leaders we need to bear real testimonies, not fake ones because the lesson told us to.  The kids can tell the difference, and they sit up and take notice.  The Spirit is the key.  

I think what used to be sufficient in the past (the things that we did as youth) are not necessarily going to be good enough when we raise our kids.  Infrequent family and individual scripture study and occasional family home evenings are not going to cut it.  
 

Misfit's stricter than I would be, but in her long lists of inappropriate activities there weren't any that I thought she was going overboard on.  Do these things really happen?  Dr. Suess themed Girls Camp?  How lame.  Activities based on Reality Shows?  Again, lame.

So Julia, Marilyn and Andrea - an enthusiastic yes to everything you said in your posts.

Julia's Much too long response once again....

Though I have definitely asked myself some of these same questions (like, what is the real purpose of being an Eagle Scout when all I see are the MOTHERS frantically running around to "help" their boys finish??), I still don't think it is Misfit's (or my) place to question the youth program leaders as a whole when these are church sponsered, Brethren decided programs (though I've done my fair share of complaining about the scouting program itself). Nor have I seen the types of things Misfit obviously has seen...or at least, not to the extent or in such quanitity (there was once a YW mother/daughter Fear Factor and I do remember one friend sharing with me that in her lesson on Eternal Marriage she used Twilight in her lesson???????). Yes, there are things out there to be concerned about, but for the most part I have seen good-intentioned people doing good things with the youth. I would also agree with Marilyn that these warnings could be applied to all age-groups in the Church. Have you seen the home teaching #s lately? Not that it's about numbers, but the lack of #s does show there could be a lack in heart as well.


So, here are my rambling thoughts (BTW - I do have to say these posts have taken me away from my children far more than any church activity or any "learning for myself" activities lately...hahahah, love it!):

I do not think the problem lies with church leaders...it lies with THE FAMILIES! Mother and Father are primarily responsible for the nurturing of their children. We all know/agree with this, but when I see the youth programs fail is when I see the parents behind the scenes not doing their part, thus proving that it's not the programs entirely at fault.   Even Elder Gene R. Cook once gave us permission to "skip" church activities if they don't meet family needs. In his book, Raising a Righteous Family Unto the Lord, he told about how his family missed several ward functions in a row. One of the leaders (maybe the bishop?) came up to Elder Cook expressing concern that the family wasn't doing well...when in reality they were doing much better because they hadn't attended the event.

The foundation must be there, or must be built afterward. Too many youth have cried in Nauvoo and thought they had a testimony. The leaders think the same way.
This reminded me of a talk by Lili Anderson entitled Three Realms of Law, Light and Life (much better reading than Misfit's stuff IMO).  In there she says:

 Many of you young women may have noticed that almost every year at girls’ camp are some girls who seem to come primarily to give the leaders grief. They break rules, they don’t show up when they’re supposed to, etc. But on the last night of camp, at the “testimony bonfire,” they often bear testimonies that seem quite sincere and emotional. They may say things like “I love my mom and dad, even though I don’t usually do what they say. I love my sister, even though I treat her badly. And I love all of you, even though I was a jerk all week.” You can see the puzzled expressions around the campfire wondering if such expressions are genuine, not wanting to be skeptical but neither wanting to be naïve. Personally, I believe the feelings expressed in such moments are sincere because the Spirit can touch anyone who is receptive. Nevertheless, in many cases, those spiritually charged moments pass quickly and are not followed up with the “trenchwork of the terrestrial.” It becomes very important then for us to be able to distinguish between solid, consistent progression toward the celestial and what we might term “the natural man on a good day.”  (bold added)

A testimony is most likely to be forged in the everyday activities and teachings of a family, not at The Event. In many ways, the youth program when operated in this fashion is actually attempting to take the place of the family, not support it.

THUS the family is where the foundation lies.  If the foundation is strong at home, it doesn't matter what the activities are as long as they are within the standards of the Church (Handbook, For Strength of Youth, scriptures, etc.).  We need to be careful not to be prim, stoic and serious all the time either. 

And to answer Andrea's question So how to advance the valiant ones without losing the ones who are along for the ride?  I don't remember the exact quote, but I believe it was Marion G. Romney who said that youth are ready and wanting the doctrine.  They don't need the fluff and the distractions from the spirit (see Teaching No Greater Call).  I also believe that the Spirit is the Spirit.  Emotion is not always the Spirit.  "The fruits of the spirit are love, peace, joy...."  If the activity provokes good, long-lasting effects, great. 

Developing talents and appreciation for cultural arts. [This one would be very hard to do without going against the standards of the church]
There are actually some very wholesome cultural arts events that can and should take place within the standards of the Church.  Cultural arts is not taking them to the latest #1 movie at the theater.

One last thought on EFY and whatnot.  I have been to Education Week (an event sponsored by the Church) and I have been to Time Out for Women (a Deseret Book sponsored event).  What a difference!!  Though I was touched by some of the stories and thoughts shared at Time Out for Women, most of it seemed to be a promotion for those speaking and their products.  It was a "stir their emotions" type meeting.  I have gone back and forth on the EFY thing.  Sure I think it's good.  I went to one and had a blast when I was 15!  Is it necessary for my children to go in order to gain a testimony?  Heavens no.  I have a friend who loves John Bytheway and he generally makes me cringe a bit because of the Mormon hero status he has seemed to acheive.  Whatever.  But, if he's the one to get my struggling youth back on track, he may become my hero as well.  :-) 

It all goes back to where the foundation needs to come from and Sister Anderson sums it up so perfectly I want to repeat:  It becomes very important then for us to be able to distinguish between solid, consistent progression toward the celestial and what we might term “the natural man on a good day.” 

P.S. (because I can't stop "talking")... I am concerned that the youth may not be learning leadership skills and youth leaders are getting more stressed out than needed because the leaders are doing all the work the youth should be doing.  My own soap box topic.  And this whole topic has made me want to evaluate better what activites I "make" my kids go to vs. letting them choose.  What if you let them choose though and they go to none of it?  Church is obviously not an option....but what about the rest of it?

Slightly More Alarmist

So many people, youth and adults included, have reported church-sponsored activities and classes that are not only directly in conflict with the mission of the church, but, at times descend into idolatry, lewd conduct, and sexual innuendo. While I have some issues with the youth programs, I have never seen that in any of the wards I have lived in.

The problem is, the people are so immersed in our society’s culture of pornography that they cannot understand what a “wholesome recreational activity” is, nor can they understand the doctrine of the church. It is quotes like this one that makes you want to smack her. I'm pretty sure I can understand what a wholesome recreational activity looks like, thank you.

There are many speakers who have a following, and make their living off of speaking to the youth. This would be known as priestcraft. I just can't accuse John Bytheway of priestcraft. Sorry. There is some "emotional manipulation" going on, I suppose, when any professional speaker speaks. However, that doesn't make it bad. I remember a Michael Mclain (sp) fireside I went to as a youth and I cried and he had us sing the last song together and sure, you could call that emotionally manipulative. However, the message was a good one and doctrinally sound and if we did get all emotional and want to be better--that was a good thing in this case.

And I resent her wandering around referring to things as "priestcraft." I am sure she thinks the "Who Is Your Hero?" series is priestcraft, but I love it. My children love it. It connects the gospel to my children's own lives in a meaningful way. If the man didn't accept payment for his labors he wouldn't have time to create those books because he would be too busy earning money a different way. I think people should be paid for employing their talents. That is just one example. Most of what is sold at Deseret Book is worthy of nothing more than adding fuel to a large bonfire (Anita Stansfield anyone?) but I still don't think the writers of the junk are committing priestcraft by creating the junk (except, perhaps, Anita Stansfield :)).

Youth Conference: She has some good points with this one. The budgets are huge. When I was a YW we went river rafting for one youth conference. It was AWESOME, but now as an adult I can appreciate the price tag.

The events themselves are usually tacky, shallow, and emotionally manipulative…not to mention doctrinally incorrect. This is in reference to youth conference. In my experience as a youth, the youth conferences I attended were fun, but not really valuable. We had the testimony meetings and whatnot, but mostly the girls worried about looking good for the boys, much candy was inhaled, and nothing really spiritual was learned. However, I know that when my parents lived in NoDak, they put a ton of effort into their youth conferences because the youth who attended were spread over three states. They always attended the temple, there was always a speaker (more priestcraft) and it wasn't just about the socializing. So while not every youth conference is perfect, I still think it can be used effectively to build up the youth and help strengthen testimony.

Too many youth have cried in Nauvoo and thought they had a testimony. The leaders think the same way. This is a sticky issue. Yes, people can cry because the whole ambiance supports crying. However, feeling the Spirit usually is an emotional thing. Just because women are crying when they bear their testimony doesn't mean they don't have a testimony. Crying does not equal a testimony but it does not mean that you are not feeling the Spirit. My goodness I'm being convoluted--I just think you cannot judge whether one is sincere or not. Plus, I'd rather a youth have a less than sincere attempted spiritual experience than another "let's paint each other's nails" activity.

A testimony is most likely to be forged in the everyday activities and teachings of a family, not at The Event. In many ways, the youth program when operated in this fashion is actually attempting to take the place of the family, not support it. I agree--testimony is most likely to grow at home. However, I don't see the connection between her first true idea and her second assertion. I don't see the youth programs trying to take the place of the family. I see them trying to do whatever they can to keep our youth engaged with the gospel.

There was a time when my son was “supposed” to go on a retreat to a vacation cabin several hours away. Okay, the story she told that started with the sentence I just posted where she didn't send her son on a church outing really bothered me. 1) Why was there an activity planned just for the presidencies? Shouldn't activities that involve that much $ involve more boys? And if they are going to plan that activity, it should have been 95% about learning how to be effective presidencies, which did not sound like the case.

2) Why do we have to work so hard to "sell" our activities to the youth. The leaders shouldn't have to bribe our youth with great food and fun, fun, fun all the time. I'm not saying activities shouldn't be fun, but we are pandering to the lowest common denominator all the time and reinforcing the idea that "youth won't come if it isn't fun." Really? When was the last time someone tried??

3) HOW DO WE FIX THIS?? How do we focus on the essentials while still keeping attendance high? It comes back to parents. The parents who really believe the gospel have their children at the activities. The ones who are really laid back about the whole thing might not. So how to do advance the valiant ones without losing the ones who are along for the ride?

Not only are we personally seeing youth fall away from the church, there is an even bigger problem. We are seeing youth who go to the activities, participate in programs, go to the Events, go on temple trips, make straight A’s, look great, do service, and do not have the fire of the covenant burning within them. Here's where I a going to be slightly more alarmist than Marilyn. I think that this quote by Misfit is 100% correct. Why aren't they being converted? Is it the fault of the family? Is it wasted time in youth programs? Is it the natural effect of moral relativism in the rest of the world? Has it always been like this and I just wasn't paying attention? How do we provide enough opportunities for our youth to feel the Spirit that they learn to recognize it?

In order to reclaim the youth, there must be a willingness to put “away the strange gods from among [us] and serve the Lord.” Then will His soul be grieved for us, and He will then deliver us. Here's where you are going to call me crazy. Ahem. This is NOT something I would say in church--just so you know. I think the second coming is going to be within my children's lifetimes, or in my grandchildren's time at the very latest. *Awkward silence.* Okay, okay, I get it. I am not some crazy loon predicting because I think I know anything. I just can't imagine the world getting much more wicked and I can't imagine the people in the church getting much more polarized. There have always been those in the church that walked their own line, but now it is ridiculous.

For example, clothing companies started by Mormons for Mormons that do not have ANY MODEST clothes in their whole establishment despite that being their justification for existing. Coarse language everywhere you turn. The Twilight phenom. The rise in pornography use amongst those who have attended the temple. The push to accept homosexuality. Etc., etc.

Back to youth programs. What are the leaders of the youth doing to offset the worldly influences? Is it enough to paint each other's nails? Is it enough to do one service project a year? And if it isn't (and I don't think it is) then how can we change it without writing off the kids who will truly only come if it is "fun."

Okay, I sound hysterical. My hysterics come from my deep maternal insecurities. What am I doing as a mother to help my children develop testimonies turns into an agonized, "Help me here--it takes a village!!!" Instead of receiving that support I am explaining to my children why the speaker's clothes are not modest and why no, it is definitely not okay to say that, and why are they having a party in primary on the Sabbath????

Maybe I'm paranoid and too focused on minutia?

Regardless of my own issues, I think we need to step up our programs to keep our youth.

Semantics

Okay--I agreed with everything you said Ju (except, I really don't read much anymore--I ignore my children when I do). The problem is not everyone who reads "you--not them" understands it the way you do. Enter the 5 pillars and blah blah. If it is just about women continuing to learn, to grow, to develop, and to tell their children how wonderful it is to learn, then great. But when you are telling moms that they need to graduate from your made-up university to be truly educated then it isn't just semantics anymore.

But, as we've noticed before, semantics does cause me cause for concern with TJEd.

(and i agree with this)

I have had to learn a LOT about not judging people since I moved to this tiny town I live in.  We have the weirdest of the weird when it comes to members here.  I think only San Francisco, with it's higher LGBTQ population, might be weirder.  ;-)  But I've learned to appreciate that even people who don't live the Gospel the way I would want to live it, still have lessons to teach me in so many areas.  In fact, I like living with these less-than-perfect people BECAUSE of the lessons I learn.  Sometimes I get frustrated when they don't live the Gospel or run the Church programs the way I think they should (I can identify with Misfit there), but always it comes back to a lesson in humility for me.  I'm not perfect, either.

Also, I just wanted to say: this (above) is awesome.  I totally agree.  I think there are weird people/Mormons everywhere (sure, Utah County/Utah in general has idiosyncrasies, but I think they are usually exaggerated and overblown by those looking to find them) and the challenge is learning to not only love but also LEARN from those you think are weird.  And to realize they actually are acting in the way that makes sense to them, just as you are doing in the way that makes sense to you.  And to be humble.  So hard to do consistently for me---it seems like as soon as I learn it in one area, I forget and become prideful again in another area.  Even with this discussion about Misfit Cygnet, I need to step back from the "Stop judging, Judger!" attitude I'm prone to adopt.

The Youth

Aaa!  So much I want to respond to, and also to bring up/ask about.  This is the time where I really wish we could just get together and talk---although, writing is nice in a way because I can actually think out what I'm going to say and say it (unlike talking, where I often get interrupted/forget my train of thought/etc.).  And I've been dealing with either cleaning up after throwing-up kids, or racing up and down trying to PREVENT having to clean up after throwing-up kids (every time my 2-year-old makes a tiny sound, she gets raced to the bathroom . . . which she really gets annoyed with)-----SO I am extremely RELIEVED to have a moment to sit down and type (the kids are napping) but I am also frustrated that I don't have MORE time.

Ahem.  First of all, I like and agree with much of what's been said here about mothers learning (but also not having to, like, be in school---like Andrea said---I think she said it perfectly) and inspiring their kids, but it doesn't have to be formal and it can be individualized for your family.

And that polygamy article was probably the single best, most enlightening thing I've ever read on the subject.  THANK YOU for posting it.  I loved it, found parts of it very detailed/hard to follow and want to study it more, but I really want to share it with everyone I know now.  We can discuss specifics more later if you want . . . but wow, really interesting dissection of D&C 132.  Wow!

And also, Andrea, don't get too excited because I don't think I live THAT much like Misfit Cygnet, but there are a few similarities, but like I said our reasoning is quite far apart  . . . anyway, we can get to that but first I am being DISCIPLINED and writing about the topic at hand: Youth Programs.

So, all I can go on here is my own experience.  And what my own experience tells me is that she is WAY overreacting, but that her concern is not totally unfounded.  Maybe I've just been lucky to be in really good wards?  Because I've NEVER seen anything even close to as bad as what she describes (Halo parties? etc.) and that leads me to believe that they are a lot rarer than she thinks.  I WOULD be concerned if I had seen tons of examples of this, but I just haven't.  Also, I am currently the YW president in my ward and so I (maybe unfairly) feel a little defensive---like, she acts like all the leaders ever think about is helping the girls have fun! and be popular! and sexy! etc.---and I can say for dang sure she's wrong about that.  We study and pray and agonize and worry and plan and try our VERY VERY HARDEST to help the girls feel the spirit--develop their own testimonies--learn useful skills--and oh yes, also have fun and enjoy being with each other.  And sure, I am totally willing to admit we fail sometimes, and there is a lot more we could do, and my own shortcomings in being insecure or feeling self-conscious and wanting the girls to like me etc. DO make the activities I plan less-than-perfect sometimes.  I know that, and I pray for help with it all the time.  I felt totally inadequate to this calling when I got it almost 2 years ago, and I still do.  Maybe someone more organized and more capable and less, whatever, would be better at it than I am, but the calling has blessed  my life and I love it and I take it seriously.  and I think it's a bit arrogant to assume that MOST PEOPLE don't do the same with their callings.

So, these leaders that always do cute handouts and crafts, and misfit thinks they are leading the youth to Babylon?  I am less sure.  I am not a fan of the cute handout/cutesy saying/etc. myself (as is probably apparent to you)----but I don't necessarily think God is condemning those methods either.  Sometimes the youth need different things in order to be reached by the spirit.  I feel the same about EFY.  I never went to it, I would not send my kids to it (although I would not say no automatically . . . if they wanted to go and paid with their own money) because that sort of cheesy-emotionally manipulative stuff drives me crazy.  Definitely, I want my kids to see the gospel more deeply than that.  But do I think EFY is priestcraft and is undermining true testimonies in our kids?  NO I do not.  I think different methods work for different people.  If a sentimental tear-filled meeting can pique a YW's interest and make her think, "maybe God IS real" . . . then who am I to condemn it?  When I was a YW at girls camp I bore my own stupid cheesy "friendimony", tried to drum up tears because it seemed more "sincere," etc.  I cringe thinking back on it.  But I also learned deep gospel lessons that have stayed with me.  I felt the spirit, it was TRULY with me though my own actions were not necessarily "deserving" of the spirit . . . I believe God sent it to me because I was young and trying and seeking him and he wanted to encourage that, even though I was not studying and understanding the gospel the way I would do later as an adult.  And I'm sure the same principle holds true now, God encourages me even when my attempts are halting and inadequate, because he knows I am on a journey towards better things.

To sum up: There is so much more to the gospel than sappy music and John Bytheway.  Of course!  I will attempt to expose my YW (and my own kids) to deeper doctrines, to pure truths, to non-emotionally-driven gospel study (like that excellent polygamy article Andrea posted), etc.  But I will also refrain from freaking out about how our youth are so worldly because they want to do an American Idol contest or they want to make Proclamation on the Family hairclips or whatever. :)  I think having FUN (yes, even watching football or making occasional non-spiritual crafts or going boating) can also bring to pass the purposes of God.  Just as it can in my own family.  I will be the first to admit I don't always have the best-prepared FHE lessons, but our family spends a lot of time having fun together and I feel super good about it when we do!  I feel like we are making memories that draw us closer together and make us a team; happy people who like each other and who feel a lot of hope and optimism about the future.  I think having fun with the youth can serve the same purposes.  Not to replace their families, not at all, but just as a supplement.

---(digression, sort of:  I am the youngest in my family and when I was in HS my two oldest brothers were married, the other was in college. At that time I really, really hated FHE at home with just my mom and my dad.  I didn't talk much to them anyway, certainly NEVER about "emotional" things like boys or deep feelings or whatever, and while that was I'm sure my own fault in a lot of ways, it wasn't something I knew how to change.  SO, my parents would want me to spend "family time" sometimes, and I just resisted it like crazy.  On the other hand I had a best friend who had younger siblings and a VERY CLOSE family.  They did stuff together ALL THE TIME, and if I wanted to hang out with my friend I often had to go with her whole family.  They let me tag along on so many things---I went to Russia with her family, and another time Germany, I had FHE with them, I went camping with them, etc.  I loved her family and their openness and in many ways felt closer to her parents than my own parents.  We had a lot of great, deep conversations and I learned a lot from them.  I try to pattern my own family after them in some ways, although of course I also emulate my own parents.  I just wonder, what if my parents had said "OUR family is the most important thing, you may not spend time with THEM at the expense of US."  They would have been doctrinally correct perhaps, but I would have resented it so much and perhaps not had anyone in my life I could talk to about the deep things.)

Okay, here is my FINAL summing up.  Sorry to be so long-winded.  I think Heavenly Father is way more involved and clever in the way he saves his children than we sometimes realize.  He works through multiple and varied channels in order to reach us.  As that polygamy article reminded us, we are just custodial parents and our children are really HIS children.  So he has a plan for them.  He can and does teach them and touch their hearts through us, their parents.  But he also lets them learn from imperfect YW leaders, wildy popular EFY speakers, sappy Mormon Pop music, self-important and know-it-all returned missionaries, enthusiastic but misguided seminary teachers, etc. etc.  He reaches them at firesides---camp---pioneer trek---testimony meetings---progressive dinners---volleyball games etc.  We just NEVER KNOW.  We do the best we can, we use our specific talents and focus on our "pet" projects while we are in the calling.  I try to do what I am good at and care most about.  For example, I think the most important thing is emphasizing the possibility of repentance.  From ANYTHING.  It's NEVER too late.  Other people might feel like teaching that is dangerous: "what if they minimize the seriousness of sin? they will just think they can repent and they won't try hard enough to avoid sin in the first place."  Okay, fine, but I have to emphasize what I know most deeply.  Then someone else comes along who may have totally different things to teach.  The kids will be led to those who can teach them what they need.  And we have to be humble enough to realize that those things, the things we aren't as passionate/knowledge about, are valuable too.  I bet Misfit Cygnet would have a lot to offer as a YW president; like Andrea said, that frankness is sometimes very refreshing.  But I don't see it as The One Lonely Voice of Truth in a Chorus of Babylon, either.  If Misfit has really seen YW leaders glorifying immodesty and sex and violence etc. (she would say, maybe, "They are doing it unwittingly---but still doing it"), but they are TRYING to do their best in their callings----well, then  I think the Lord is STILL using them the best he can.  Not to say we shouldn't strive for more with our youth.  Challenge them more, expect more of them, do less spoon-feeding.  Yes.  But  we are supposed to strive for more with EVERYONE.  We should do better with our RS lessons, Elders Quorum lessons, outreach to the needy, etc.  I don't find any EXTRA cause for alarm with the youth.

Have to go pick up kids from school so I'm publishing this . . . hope it makes some sense :)
--Marilyn

trust the process

one more thing...I agree with Kelly about the Trust the Process thing.  It goes along with the blanket answer when a child asks what's it like in heaven and we say, "just gotta have faith."  What?  That makes no sense to the child.  Hate the "trust the process" comment.  :-)

Continual Education

I don't think we disagree as much as you might thing on this topic, Ans.  I just re-read what I wrote about the YOU principle and realized it wasn't very clear (I did write it close to midnight last night, forgive me).  Your example with Rangers Apprentice is what I'm saying.  YOU read the books first and then got your child to read them.  It wasn't a "Hey, I hear these books are good" or "look this book is on a classics list so it must be good and so YOU have to read it."  No, that's not what I'm saying.  I believe in continual education for women.  Period.  Andrea is a well-read individual.  Many, many, many mothers do not have that background from their younger years and I  agree with what Kelly said...
Reading DeMille's book opened my eyes to a lot of possibilities, and also made me realize that I had a whole lot of learning left to do in areas I'd never even known existed.  I was SO steeped in the conveyor belt mentality (to use DeMille's phrasing) that his book was huge for me.  Since then I've read so much.  I appreciate DeMille for opening my eyes.  (bold added)


That is how I see this principle fits.  As I said before this principle is not an excuse to take time away from your children, your responsibilities at home, or even time away from your husband...and this, sadly, is what many of the "TJEd Followers" have done or feel like they MUST do.  I recently picked up A Well-Educated Mind by Susan Bauer (or Jessie??)...which a basically a Well-Trained Mind book for parents/mothers.  I don't see anyone knocking her ideas down.  This is all just a promotion for mothers continuing to educate themselves.  I've seen too many women who, when their kids leave the home, don't know what to do with themselves because they stopped learning or are too scared to venture out of what they just did the past 20-30 years.  I don't want to be that way.

I have at times felt "guilty" for making time to read in my days because other mothers have said they don't have time  (my own self-imposed feelings there).  Well, I'm sorry.  I read.  I love to read and make time every day for that for myself.  That is what I am doing to further my education (that and responding to these lovely conversations!).  :-)

Point is...I think it's more of a semantics thing that bothers you than the actual idea of educating yourself and using that knowledge to inspire your children. 

TJEd and Moving On

I disagree with Julia about the inspire your kids by educating yourself. What does that even mean? You, not them. What the? I know the DeMille's try to explain it through copious amounts of ambiguous writing, but I just can't agree with it.

Let's look at a classroom *gasp--not the conveyor belt* for a second. Teachers don't teach students by teaching themselves. They don't inspire students by demonstrating that they too are learning (at least, not at the early ages). They inspire students by being excited about learning. That's all you have to do. I convinced Miriam to read the Ranger's Apprentice series by sneaking around the house (in full view, I thought Cowen was going to die from laughter, funny kid) and saying secret words to my imaginary horse. Was I learning anything? No. Was I inspiring? Heck, yes. She's halfway through the fifth book and loving them.

That's what I don't like about TJEd. They started off with some great ideas, especially--don't waste time with worthless books. But after that, they went a little crazy.

When children are older, you can start pointing out things like, "Wow! I've never had to plan a dinner for that many people. I sure learned something new." But really, I don't see much point in that either. I was perfectly happy to believe my whole life (still do) that my mom knew EVERYTHING. That was inspiring. I wanted to be just like her and know everything too (ha--I know so little by comparison it is scary. For example, how do I get rid of this new infestation of fruit flies? I'm scared to call and ask her because she'll ask how it got started in the first place, and then I'll have to explain about the grapes Em stuck under her bed, etc.).

Point: you can be inspiring just by using the knowledge you already have. Kids DO NOT have that knowledge already. They notice things like that. It's inspiring.

Off my soapbox.

Now--read this post about youth programs and we'll discuss. Kami--you have to chime in her since you've been in YW more recently than me. Love to hear all of your perspectives. Also--we'll get to the way she lives because now I am dying (in the most dramatic way) to know what Marilyn meant when she said she lives a lot like Misfit for different reasons. But that, dear group, must wait until after the youth programs. See--sometimes shocking things spark discussion. It is just painful to read.

take 2

Why, oh why, do we have to be having a fascinating discussion when I am in the midst of high-maintenance company???  So not fair.

First, Andrea, I've been humbled, repented, and am ready to choose the right.  ;-)

I have realized something about myself recently, which is that when I am evaluating a program like TJEd or other things, I tend to intuitively drop the stuff I don't agree with, without every consciously acknowledging it to myself.  So then when I'm asked to explain myself, it's harder for me to do and I have to stop and put some thought into it.

So a couple things I want to clarify.  I don't really care that the DeMille's are using TJEd for a business.  That's their right.  What bothers me is the inconsistency of having "principles" followed by things (seminars,books,college classes, etc) that you have to buy in order to be following the "principles" correctly.  I don't think I truly verbalized that to myself until recently.  I just know that I decided long ago that the 5 Pillars of Greatness thing was a waste of my money since I could just as easily read good books without mailing in an essay to a stranger.  You know?  That is one of the lamest things.

Also, the cult-like following disturbs me.  Not that there's something evil about TJEd itself, just the attitudes of the "followers".

As Julia pointed out, I also hated the idea that my mission shouldn't be my home and family, and that saying it is, is a cop-out.   I actually read that somewhere from some TJEder and that really bothered me.  I don't want another MISSION right now - the idea only made me feel like some sort of slacker, until I decided to ignore it.

I agree with you all that we can still get good from TJEd, no matter what sort of person DeMille is.  I know I have.  Since I knew NO home-schoolers ever until Hannah was four, I had no idea what sorts of options were out there.  Reading DeMille's book opened my eyes to a lot of possibilities, and also made me realize that I had a whole lot of learning left to do in areas I'd never even known existed.  I was SO steeped in the conveyor belt mentality (to use DeMille's phrasing) that his book was huge for me.  Since then I've read so much.  I appreciate DeMille for opening my eyes.

One of my little peeves has always been how much time Rachel DeMille spends doing this.  I have poked around on some of the TJEd websites and stuff and it seems like she must be ALWAYS online.  I have to wonder how you can help your children get educated when you're busy running a business, responding to emails, moderating yahoo groups and facebook pages, etc.  Oh, and her phrase that she repeats like crazy in one of their CDs to "trust the process".  She first started using that phrase when her oldest was about 11 - too soon in my opinion to expect your following to "trust the process" since you haven't even gone through it yourself yet!


And now I have to move on from TJEd for a minute, so I guess my Andrea-induced repentance didn't stick.  ;-)

As for Misfit and her attitude, I have had to learn a LOT about not judging people since I moved to this tiny town I live in.  We have the weirdest of the weird when it comes to members here.  I think only San Francisco, with it's higher LGBTQ population, might be weirder.  ;-)  But I've learned to appreciate that even people who don't live the Gospel the way I would want to live it, still have lessons to teach me in so many areas.  In fact, I like living with these less-than-perfect people BECAUSE of the lessons I learn.  Sometimes I get frustrated when they don't live the Gospel or run the Church programs the way I think they should (I can identify with Misfit there), but always it comes back to a lesson in humility for me.  I'm not perfect, either.
I don't want to be like Misfit and see so much evil, sorrow, and worldliness in the people around me.   She keeps talking about the importance of judging evil, but that's a tricky thing to do in a Christ-like way.

A couple months ago I replied to one of Misfit's posts and suggested that she take a more diplomatic tone.  She was actually really nice and promised to do that.   I don't think that her aggravating tone is the way the Savior would want us to communicate, which is basically what I told her in my comment.   She's always saying she appreciates (polite) honesty, so I thought I would tell her how I felt.  ;-)

I would love to know what you all thought of her post on youth programs.  REALLY made me think - especially remembering that the youth should be with their families, first and foremost, and if you are taking them away from their families for a church function, you better have a darn good reason!  Worthwhile, uplifting activities are vital!  I also agree, and think, that we are not helping our young men enough to prepare for missions in the young men's program.  I talked to Josh about this - he's currently responsible for our stake youth as part of his calling.  Definitely things to think about.