I don't think we disagree as much as you might thing on this topic, Ans. I just re-read what I wrote about the YOU principle and realized it wasn't very clear (I did write it close to midnight last night, forgive me). Your example with Rangers Apprentice is what I'm saying. YOU read the books first and then got your child to read them. It wasn't a "Hey, I hear these books are good" or "look this book is on a classics list so it must be good and so YOU have to read it." No, that's not what I'm saying. I believe in continual education for women. Period. Andrea is a well-read individual. Many, many, many mothers do not have that background from their younger years and I agree with what Kelly said...
Reading DeMille's book opened my eyes to a lot of possibilities, and also made me realize that I had a whole lot of learning left to do in areas I'd never even known existed. I was SO steeped in the conveyor belt mentality (to use DeMille's phrasing) that his book was huge for me. Since then I've read so much. I appreciate DeMille for opening my eyes. (bold added)
That is how I see this principle fits. As I said before this principle is not an excuse to take time away from your children, your responsibilities at home, or even time away from your husband...and this, sadly, is what many of the "TJEd Followers" have done or feel like they MUST do. I recently picked up A Well-Educated Mind by Susan Bauer (or Jessie??)...which a basically a Well-Trained Mind book for parents/mothers. I don't see anyone knocking her ideas down. This is all just a promotion for mothers continuing to educate themselves. I've seen too many women who, when their kids leave the home, don't know what to do with themselves because they stopped learning or are too scared to venture out of what they just did the past 20-30 years. I don't want to be that way.
I have at times felt "guilty" for making time to read in my days because other mothers have said they don't have time (my own self-imposed feelings there). Well, I'm sorry. I read. I love to read and make time every day for that for myself. That is what I am doing to further my education (that and responding to these lovely conversations!). :-)
Point is...I think it's more of a semantics thing that bothers you than the actual idea of educating yourself and using that knowledge to inspire your children.
Wednesday, November 9, 2011
TJEd and Moving On
I disagree with Julia about the inspire your kids by educating yourself. What does that even mean? You, not them. What the? I know the DeMille's try to explain it through copious amounts of ambiguous writing, but I just can't agree with it.
Let's look at a classroom *gasp--not the conveyor belt* for a second. Teachers don't teach students by teaching themselves. They don't inspire students by demonstrating that they too are learning (at least, not at the early ages). They inspire students by being excited about learning. That's all you have to do. I convinced Miriam to read the Ranger's Apprentice series by sneaking around the house (in full view, I thought Cowen was going to die from laughter, funny kid) and saying secret words to my imaginary horse. Was I learning anything? No. Was I inspiring? Heck, yes. She's halfway through the fifth book and loving them.
That's what I don't like about TJEd. They started off with some great ideas, especially--don't waste time with worthless books. But after that, they went a little crazy.
When children are older, you can start pointing out things like, "Wow! I've never had to plan a dinner for that many people. I sure learned something new." But really, I don't see much point in that either. I was perfectly happy to believe my whole life (still do) that my mom knew EVERYTHING. That was inspiring. I wanted to be just like her and know everything too (ha--I know so little by comparison it is scary. For example, how do I get rid of this new infestation of fruit flies? I'm scared to call and ask her because she'll ask how it got started in the first place, and then I'll have to explain about the grapes Em stuck under her bed, etc.).
Point: you can be inspiring just by using the knowledge you already have. Kids DO NOT have that knowledge already. They notice things like that. It's inspiring.
Off my soapbox.
Now--read this post about youth programs and we'll discuss. Kami--you have to chime in her since you've been in YW more recently than me. Love to hear all of your perspectives. Also--we'll get to the way she lives because now I am dying (in the most dramatic way) to know what Marilyn meant when she said she lives a lot like Misfit for different reasons. But that, dear group, must wait until after the youth programs. See--sometimes shocking things spark discussion. It is just painful to read.
Let's look at a classroom *gasp--not the conveyor belt* for a second. Teachers don't teach students by teaching themselves. They don't inspire students by demonstrating that they too are learning (at least, not at the early ages). They inspire students by being excited about learning. That's all you have to do. I convinced Miriam to read the Ranger's Apprentice series by sneaking around the house (in full view, I thought Cowen was going to die from laughter, funny kid) and saying secret words to my imaginary horse. Was I learning anything? No. Was I inspiring? Heck, yes. She's halfway through the fifth book and loving them.
That's what I don't like about TJEd. They started off with some great ideas, especially--don't waste time with worthless books. But after that, they went a little crazy.
When children are older, you can start pointing out things like, "Wow! I've never had to plan a dinner for that many people. I sure learned something new." But really, I don't see much point in that either. I was perfectly happy to believe my whole life (still do) that my mom knew EVERYTHING. That was inspiring. I wanted to be just like her and know everything too (ha--I know so little by comparison it is scary. For example, how do I get rid of this new infestation of fruit flies? I'm scared to call and ask her because she'll ask how it got started in the first place, and then I'll have to explain about the grapes Em stuck under her bed, etc.).
Point: you can be inspiring just by using the knowledge you already have. Kids DO NOT have that knowledge already. They notice things like that. It's inspiring.
Off my soapbox.
Now--read this post about youth programs and we'll discuss. Kami--you have to chime in her since you've been in YW more recently than me. Love to hear all of your perspectives. Also--we'll get to the way she lives because now I am dying (in the most dramatic way) to know what Marilyn meant when she said she lives a lot like Misfit for different reasons. But that, dear group, must wait until after the youth programs. See--sometimes shocking things spark discussion. It is just painful to read.
take 2
Why, oh why, do we have to be having a fascinating discussion when I am in the midst of high-maintenance company??? So not fair.
First, Andrea, I've been humbled, repented, and am ready to choose the right. ;-)
I have realized something about myself recently, which is that when I am evaluating a program like TJEd or other things, I tend to intuitively drop the stuff I don't agree with, without every consciously acknowledging it to myself. So then when I'm asked to explain myself, it's harder for me to do and I have to stop and put some thought into it.
So a couple things I want to clarify. I don't really care that the DeMille's are using TJEd for a business. That's their right. What bothers me is the inconsistency of having "principles" followed by things (seminars,books,college classes, etc) that you have to buy in order to be following the "principles" correctly. I don't think I truly verbalized that to myself until recently. I just know that I decided long ago that the 5 Pillars of Greatness thing was a waste of my money since I could just as easily read good books without mailing in an essay to a stranger. You know? That is one of the lamest things.
Also, the cult-like following disturbs me. Not that there's something evil about TJEd itself, just the attitudes of the "followers".
As Julia pointed out, I also hated the idea that my mission shouldn't be my home and family, and that saying it is, is a cop-out. I actually read that somewhere from some TJEder and that really bothered me. I don't want another MISSION right now - the idea only made me feel like some sort of slacker, until I decided to ignore it.
I agree with you all that we can still get good from TJEd, no matter what sort of person DeMille is. I know I have. Since I knew NO home-schoolers ever until Hannah was four, I had no idea what sorts of options were out there. Reading DeMille's book opened my eyes to a lot of possibilities, and also made me realize that I had a whole lot of learning left to do in areas I'd never even known existed. I was SO steeped in the conveyor belt mentality (to use DeMille's phrasing) that his book was huge for me. Since then I've read so much. I appreciate DeMille for opening my eyes.
One of my little peeves has always been how much time Rachel DeMille spends doing this. I have poked around on some of the TJEd websites and stuff and it seems like she must be ALWAYS online. I have to wonder how you can help your children get educated when you're busy running a business, responding to emails, moderating yahoo groups and facebook pages, etc. Oh, and her phrase that she repeats like crazy in one of their CDs to "trust the process". She first started using that phrase when her oldest was about 11 - too soon in my opinion to expect your following to "trust the process" since you haven't even gone through it yourself yet!
And now I have to move on from TJEd for a minute, so I guess my Andrea-induced repentance didn't stick. ;-)
As for Misfit and her attitude, I have had to learn a LOT about not judging people since I moved to this tiny town I live in. We have the weirdest of the weird when it comes to members here. I think only San Francisco, with it's higher LGBTQ population, might be weirder. ;-) But I've learned to appreciate that even people who don't live the Gospel the way I would want to live it, still have lessons to teach me in so many areas. In fact, I like living with these less-than-perfect people BECAUSE of the lessons I learn. Sometimes I get frustrated when they don't live the Gospel or run the Church programs the way I think they should (I can identify with Misfit there), but always it comes back to a lesson in humility for me. I'm not perfect, either.
I don't want to be like Misfit and see so much evil, sorrow, and worldliness in the people around me. She keeps talking about the importance of judging evil, but that's a tricky thing to do in a Christ-like way.
A couple months ago I replied to one of Misfit's posts and suggested that she take a more diplomatic tone. She was actually really nice and promised to do that. I don't think that her aggravating tone is the way the Savior would want us to communicate, which is basically what I told her in my comment. She's always saying she appreciates (polite) honesty, so I thought I would tell her how I felt. ;-)
I would love to know what you all thought of her post on youth programs. REALLY made me think - especially remembering that the youth should be with their families, first and foremost, and if you are taking them away from their families for a church function, you better have a darn good reason! Worthwhile, uplifting activities are vital! I also agree, and think, that we are not helping our young men enough to prepare for missions in the young men's program. I talked to Josh about this - he's currently responsible for our stake youth as part of his calling. Definitely things to think about.
First, Andrea, I've been humbled, repented, and am ready to choose the right. ;-)
I have realized something about myself recently, which is that when I am evaluating a program like TJEd or other things, I tend to intuitively drop the stuff I don't agree with, without every consciously acknowledging it to myself. So then when I'm asked to explain myself, it's harder for me to do and I have to stop and put some thought into it.
So a couple things I want to clarify. I don't really care that the DeMille's are using TJEd for a business. That's their right. What bothers me is the inconsistency of having "principles" followed by things (seminars,books,college classes, etc) that you have to buy in order to be following the "principles" correctly. I don't think I truly verbalized that to myself until recently. I just know that I decided long ago that the 5 Pillars of Greatness thing was a waste of my money since I could just as easily read good books without mailing in an essay to a stranger. You know? That is one of the lamest things.
Also, the cult-like following disturbs me. Not that there's something evil about TJEd itself, just the attitudes of the "followers".
As Julia pointed out, I also hated the idea that my mission shouldn't be my home and family, and that saying it is, is a cop-out. I actually read that somewhere from some TJEder and that really bothered me. I don't want another MISSION right now - the idea only made me feel like some sort of slacker, until I decided to ignore it.
I agree with you all that we can still get good from TJEd, no matter what sort of person DeMille is. I know I have. Since I knew NO home-schoolers ever until Hannah was four, I had no idea what sorts of options were out there. Reading DeMille's book opened my eyes to a lot of possibilities, and also made me realize that I had a whole lot of learning left to do in areas I'd never even known existed. I was SO steeped in the conveyor belt mentality (to use DeMille's phrasing) that his book was huge for me. Since then I've read so much. I appreciate DeMille for opening my eyes.
One of my little peeves has always been how much time Rachel DeMille spends doing this. I have poked around on some of the TJEd websites and stuff and it seems like she must be ALWAYS online. I have to wonder how you can help your children get educated when you're busy running a business, responding to emails, moderating yahoo groups and facebook pages, etc. Oh, and her phrase that she repeats like crazy in one of their CDs to "trust the process". She first started using that phrase when her oldest was about 11 - too soon in my opinion to expect your following to "trust the process" since you haven't even gone through it yourself yet!
And now I have to move on from TJEd for a minute, so I guess my Andrea-induced repentance didn't stick. ;-)
As for Misfit and her attitude, I have had to learn a LOT about not judging people since I moved to this tiny town I live in. We have the weirdest of the weird when it comes to members here. I think only San Francisco, with it's higher LGBTQ population, might be weirder. ;-) But I've learned to appreciate that even people who don't live the Gospel the way I would want to live it, still have lessons to teach me in so many areas. In fact, I like living with these less-than-perfect people BECAUSE of the lessons I learn. Sometimes I get frustrated when they don't live the Gospel or run the Church programs the way I think they should (I can identify with Misfit there), but always it comes back to a lesson in humility for me. I'm not perfect, either.
I don't want to be like Misfit and see so much evil, sorrow, and worldliness in the people around me. She keeps talking about the importance of judging evil, but that's a tricky thing to do in a Christ-like way.
A couple months ago I replied to one of Misfit's posts and suggested that she take a more diplomatic tone. She was actually really nice and promised to do that. I don't think that her aggravating tone is the way the Savior would want us to communicate, which is basically what I told her in my comment. She's always saying she appreciates (polite) honesty, so I thought I would tell her how I felt. ;-)
I would love to know what you all thought of her post on youth programs. REALLY made me think - especially remembering that the youth should be with their families, first and foremost, and if you are taking them away from their families for a church function, you better have a darn good reason! Worthwhile, uplifting activities are vital! I also agree, and think, that we are not helping our young men enough to prepare for missions in the young men's program. I talked to Josh about this - he's currently responsible for our stake youth as part of his calling. Definitely things to think about.
First of all, it is so funny to me how so FAR on one side or the other people are on this issue. I could go on and have this same discussion about politics, parenting (spanking or no spanking, etc), homeschool vs. public school, etc...etc...etc... So, to me, this TJEd is no different than any other philosophy than others.
Example: Years ago I read A Joyful Mother of Children by Linda Eyre. It revolutionized my way of thinking as a mother. I suddenly wanted to read everything by the Eyres and wanted to be just like them. I read another book of theirs and loved it. Then I tried another and was completely turned off by it. I didn't then go swear off the Eyres as horrible people and say that I was never going to follow anything else they said. Plus, neither of them have any professional degree in parenting (correct me if I'm wrong), so who makes them the experts anyway? They, too, went on to publish curriculums for "Joy Schools" (which any mom could do if they put some thought into it)...yes, a $$-making venture. And started a website with value-parenting ideas and whatnot...another $$-making venture. It's what people do!! You take what you want, what works for your family, and move on. People do get very wrapped up in TJEd on both sides of the fence and I don't get it. This is why I resisted the making of or being a part of a "TJEd group" here where I live. Why does TJEd bring out all-or-nothing attitude in people?
Misfit in General
I do not like her style. I will not condemn her the way she condemns others (though I'm tempted), but I will say that "contention is of the devil" and so to say things for argument's sake just might put her on the same side as those she's criticizing. :-) In general, I just stay away from her blog. I do agree with Andrea that we do walk on eggshells sometimes with these sorts of topics (and in church culture) which is why I love Sister Beck...she is not an eggshell walker, nor is she acerbic. :-)
What I do agree with where Misfit is concerned...She said:
I have to admit, some of the TJEd stuff has made me feel this way. That my mission is somehow outside the home rather than in the home. I have felt the need (and will say desire) to do the 5 pillar stuff...the same way I felt I needed to rearrange my house with the right bookshelves and closets to have a true TJEd home AND the same way I thought I needed to have a chore system just like the Eyres. I latch on, realize I'm crazy and take from it what I can. It's me. And thankfully, all the TJed stuff is just too expensive and not worth my $$. :-)
I do dislike labels. I dislike being part of a group and feeling like I can't veer off or be different than others who are part of the same group. I dislike being exclusive. And I do think there is a major unhealthy following in the TJEd circle.
I have always been leery of the $$ schemes. Not the original seminars, per se...that makes a bit of sense to me. But the extra things...the books that continue to come out (The Student Whisperer????? Lame!) and the Leadership seminars (LEMI). Just seem lame to me and a way to make $$$.
Disagree with Misfit:
So it’s you, not them. You need to study and get your Depth Phase and your 16 Pillars and your Levels of Leadership and your two towers, and then you will be qualified to teach your children? Meanwhile, they are just supposed to watch you doing this and get “inspired?” What a load of baloney.
Once again, please keep comments brief and as unemotional as possible.
I'm sorry, but if you're going to post things on a blog to stir emotion, do not put this line on your post!
Last Thought (I hope, as I'm sure you do too)
I have gone back and forth on the TJEd thing myself. I think the 7 keys are great when focussing on the positive aspect of them, not the "nots." A friend of mine read this book and said, "You mean, everyone doesn't think this way?" I had to admit that this book was a good thing for me to get away from doing things just because everyone did them. Does that make sense? Not everyone thinks this way (as Andrea does). The same way as when I read 7 Habits of Highly Effective people or Dave Ramsey stuff. It's great , but it's common sense to me and so it doesn't do much for me. Using parts of the TJEd stuff has given me and my family some direction, given us some great ideas to implement and try, given me permission (so to speak) to read on my own (without neglecting my family to do so).
On the flip side, I think there has been created a TJEd conveyor belt of sorts and a culture of elitists and a mentality of "your stupid and will not raise intelligent children if you do not do it our way" (which is totally opposite of what TJEd proposes to teach). Again, why is there such a stir? Is it really that bad or really that good? It's just a philosophy, isn't it?!
Example: Years ago I read A Joyful Mother of Children by Linda Eyre. It revolutionized my way of thinking as a mother. I suddenly wanted to read everything by the Eyres and wanted to be just like them. I read another book of theirs and loved it. Then I tried another and was completely turned off by it. I didn't then go swear off the Eyres as horrible people and say that I was never going to follow anything else they said. Plus, neither of them have any professional degree in parenting (correct me if I'm wrong), so who makes them the experts anyway? They, too, went on to publish curriculums for "Joy Schools" (which any mom could do if they put some thought into it)...yes, a $$-making venture. And started a website with value-parenting ideas and whatnot...another $$-making venture. It's what people do!! You take what you want, what works for your family, and move on. People do get very wrapped up in TJEd on both sides of the fence and I don't get it. This is why I resisted the making of or being a part of a "TJEd group" here where I live. Why does TJEd bring out all-or-nothing attitude in people?
Misfit in General
I do not like her style. I will not condemn her the way she condemns others (though I'm tempted), but I will say that "contention is of the devil" and so to say things for argument's sake just might put her on the same side as those she's criticizing. :-) In general, I just stay away from her blog. I do agree with Andrea that we do walk on eggshells sometimes with these sorts of topics (and in church culture) which is why I love Sister Beck...she is not an eggshell walker, nor is she acerbic. :-)
What I do agree with where Misfit is concerned...She said:
We don’t need TJED moms starting Princess Academies, sponsoring trips to Costa Rica to help the poor, or any of that. We need moms who will be at home, focused on their children....Distract the mother. Prey on her insecurities in her attempt at educating her children at home, and then get her completely focused on herself.
I have to admit, some of the TJEd stuff has made me feel this way. That my mission is somehow outside the home rather than in the home. I have felt the need (and will say desire) to do the 5 pillar stuff...the same way I felt I needed to rearrange my house with the right bookshelves and closets to have a true TJEd home AND the same way I thought I needed to have a chore system just like the Eyres. I latch on, realize I'm crazy and take from it what I can. It's me. And thankfully, all the TJed stuff is just too expensive and not worth my $$. :-)
Another disturbing thing is the fact that nearly all people who are following the TJED methodology label themselves as “TJEDers” or “TJED Followers”. They brand themselves in this strange fashion, and then become nearly religious in their adherence to this “belief system.”
I do dislike labels. I dislike being part of a group and feeling like I can't veer off or be different than others who are part of the same group. I dislike being exclusive. And I do think there is a major unhealthy following in the TJEd circle.
I have always been leery of the $$ schemes. Not the original seminars, per se...that makes a bit of sense to me. But the extra things...the books that continue to come out (The Student Whisperer????? Lame!) and the Leadership seminars (LEMI). Just seem lame to me and a way to make $$$.
Disagree with Misfit:
So it’s you, not them. You need to study and get your Depth Phase and your 16 Pillars and your Levels of Leadership and your two towers, and then you will be qualified to teach your children? Meanwhile, they are just supposed to watch you doing this and get “inspired?” What a load of baloney.
This, I have come to believe, is a misconstrued take on the You, Not Them principle. I think everyone on this blog would agree that women should be furthering their education. Does that need to with formal degrees, or through TJEd 5 pillars or George Wythe? NO! But it is vital for our children to see their mothers stretching themselves in whatever they are learning, be it through their calling or an outside class or whatever. Going back to that first quote though...we all need to careful that what we are doing is not taking us away from our families more than is necessary. This is how I take the YOU not them principle: let your children see you learning in some way, set an example for them in what you want them to be doing. This does not mean you need to pull out the Saxon math books or feel guilty that you're not pulling out the Saxon math books just so they will miraculously be inspired to learn math!! But it does mean that we do need to show them the process of learning...by example and WITH them (not separate from them). DeMille says himself, "start learning and pull them along with you." I think that last phrase is much skipped over.
I'm sorry, but if you're going to post things on a blog to stir emotion, do not put this line on your post!
Last Thought (I hope, as I'm sure you do too)
I have gone back and forth on the TJEd thing myself. I think the 7 keys are great when focussing on the positive aspect of them, not the "nots." A friend of mine read this book and said, "You mean, everyone doesn't think this way?" I had to admit that this book was a good thing for me to get away from doing things just because everyone did them. Does that make sense? Not everyone thinks this way (as Andrea does). The same way as when I read 7 Habits of Highly Effective people or Dave Ramsey stuff. It's great , but it's common sense to me and so it doesn't do much for me. Using parts of the TJEd stuff has given me and my family some direction, given us some great ideas to implement and try, given me permission (so to speak) to read on my own (without neglecting my family to do so).
On the flip side, I think there has been created a TJEd conveyor belt of sorts and a culture of elitists and a mentality of "your stupid and will not raise intelligent children if you do not do it our way" (which is totally opposite of what TJEd proposes to teach). Again, why is there such a stir? Is it really that bad or really that good? It's just a philosophy, isn't it?!
Tuesday, November 8, 2011
Other TJEd article on Misfit
I was looking through Misfit's blog (addicting in a strange way) and found she had a new TJEd post that I liked much better than her first one as it addressed more of the implementation concerns rather than the founder's instability concerns.
http://www.misfitcygnet.com/2011/11/the-question-of-deception-a-few-major-flaws-with-thomas-jefferson-education/
Anyone else read it?
http://www.misfitcygnet.com/2011/11/the-question-of-deception-a-few-major-flaws-with-thomas-jefferson-education/
Anyone else read it?
Misfit Again
I am going to call Kelly to repentance now. Kelly, there are several other Misfit articles I want to discuss here, so no skipping around. Stay focused.
Ha. That was fun.
On to the matter at hand. I have to agree with Marilyn, Kelly, and Autumn about Misfit's general tone. However, I also find it refreshing sometimes. There is a lot of pussy-footing around issues in the world/church, and while I think sheer abrasiveness for abrasiveness' sake is unnecessary, it also caught my attention and made me think. I don't know if a gentler, more humble tone would have done that in quite the same way. On the flip side, I don't think many people who follow TJEd would be open to hearing her viewpoint because of her tone. You shouldn't alienate your audience.
As for TJEd, I have also read much of the materials and thought about the principles and pondered applying them in my homeschool. Eventually I decided against it (even though Julia calls me a closet TJEder) because of the BLATANT DISHONESTY of telling people that their own education is inadequate (playing on all homeschoolers' insecurity about doing the best thing for their children) and that they only way to get an adequate education is to spend lots of money getting a degree from a non-accredited school. Lots of moral self-satisfaction, I suppose, that you now are truly educated, but a complete waste of time and money otherwise. Perhaps Oliver DeMille is a wonderful person, but his "university" is a scam--there just plain isn't a nice way to say it.
I do, however, disagree with Misfit about if something is a lie than it is all bad. Marilyn put it perfectly so I don't need to rehash it. My concern is that the good in TJEd is thought of as TJEd goodness instead of being recognized as obvious good teaching practices (although there are plenty of bad teaching practices put forward as well) that many other people have also advocated. I also get bugged by the cult-like adherence of some of its followers. But again, just because I disagree with some of the teaching practices doesn't mean I have to disregard the obvious good in TJEd--like reading classics and recognizing that small children don't need to be pushed academically.
So . . . my closing remarks. I agreed with some of what Misfit said, but her whole premise--that because Oliver DeMille is a bad person you should avoid TJEd like the plague--is faulty. While I have many concerns about TJEd, her concerns are not mine.
Ha. That was fun.
On to the matter at hand. I have to agree with Marilyn, Kelly, and Autumn about Misfit's general tone. However, I also find it refreshing sometimes. There is a lot of pussy-footing around issues in the world/church, and while I think sheer abrasiveness for abrasiveness' sake is unnecessary, it also caught my attention and made me think. I don't know if a gentler, more humble tone would have done that in quite the same way. On the flip side, I don't think many people who follow TJEd would be open to hearing her viewpoint because of her tone. You shouldn't alienate your audience.
As for TJEd, I have also read much of the materials and thought about the principles and pondered applying them in my homeschool. Eventually I decided against it (even though Julia calls me a closet TJEder) because of the BLATANT DISHONESTY of telling people that their own education is inadequate (playing on all homeschoolers' insecurity about doing the best thing for their children) and that they only way to get an adequate education is to spend lots of money getting a degree from a non-accredited school. Lots of moral self-satisfaction, I suppose, that you now are truly educated, but a complete waste of time and money otherwise. Perhaps Oliver DeMille is a wonderful person, but his "university" is a scam--there just plain isn't a nice way to say it.
I do, however, disagree with Misfit about if something is a lie than it is all bad. Marilyn put it perfectly so I don't need to rehash it. My concern is that the good in TJEd is thought of as TJEd goodness instead of being recognized as obvious good teaching practices (although there are plenty of bad teaching practices put forward as well) that many other people have also advocated. I also get bugged by the cult-like adherence of some of its followers. But again, just because I disagree with some of the teaching practices doesn't mean I have to disregard the obvious good in TJEd--like reading classics and recognizing that small children don't need to be pushed academically.
So . . . my closing remarks. I agreed with some of what Misfit said, but her whole premise--that because Oliver DeMille is a bad person you should avoid TJEd like the plague--is faulty. While I have many concerns about TJEd, her concerns are not mine.
Monday, November 7, 2011
I Agree with Marilyn
I am too lazy to look up the quote, but Brigham Young basically said that whether it be found in heaven or hell, if it is truth, we claim it as our own. The scriptures also say that by their fruits ye shall know them. What are the fruits of TJED? I have personally read TJED, the home companion, leadership education, attended two seminars, listened to a couple of cds, flipped through the kimber curriculum books, and read a couple of books written by people who follow TJED ie A House United by Nicholeen Peck (amazing!) and The Other Eminent Men of Wilford Woodruff. Every single one of these books I felt the spirit while I read them and found amazing things in them that have improved my life. Also, every single woman that I know who is following TJED is reading classics and writing, improving their education, trying harder to be better mothers, getting involved in politics to promote freedom by returning to the constitution, becoming more self sufficient through gardening, food storage, learning skills like weaving, sewing, etc. and trying to become debt free. All of these things are GOOD. These fruits say to me that TJED is not evil. This lady is crazy. Also, since when did making money become and evil thing? Dave Ramsey said on his radio show that people tend to see money like a pie--they think there is only so much to go around. He says money is more like a river--the more there is the farther is flows and the more people's lives it touches. Entrepreneurship is a good thing!
Misfit
Marilyn,
Your thoughts echo my own. I've been reading Misfit Cygnet for awhile. I have gotten so frustrated that I've sworn off reading her...but then I relent and check back in, and find that she's written something that I so totally agree with that I keep on reading. My husband and I both follow her blog. We are either really annoyed with her attitude (you're right in that what she calls satire is NOT satire - it's self-righteous condemnation a lot of times), find her totally thought-provoking although we disagree, or actually (surprisingly!!) agree with her. It definitely varies.
As for TJEd, I thought she had some valid points to make. As someone who's done quite a bit to research, attended a couple of their seminars, read a few of the books (but definitely not all), and knows some people personally who were peripherally and directly associated with the George Wythe College/University (one was a teacher there), I can tell you that she's not all wrong. They do have some problems. They are trying to make money off of this. A lot of the "educational truths" here are for income, in my opinion. I don't know that they are being dishonest on purpose. The blog post she references about George Wythe defrauding a lady out of money is not entirely accurate. If you continue on the blog she cites, and read through the comments, there is more information to give a better picture. I don't think she read the comments - or else she went looking for information and only saw what she wanted to see.
I thought her post about BYU Football was lame. I thought her post about problems in our youth program were fairly accurate.
As for TJEd...I think people who adhere to it are a little too...I don't know how to say...strict in their adherence? They equate TJEd truthfulness with Gospel truthfulness and act as though they are one and the same. They are not.
Misfit's very judgmental. I don't know how she can stand to live in a world with so many sinners, actually. :-) But sometimes she judges correctly (in my opinion). Sometimes I think she skirts the line of apostasy...kind of like her ranting about ESPN when you know it had to be approved by at least some of the Brethren. Either that, or they leave people to govern themselves and are willing to take the consequences of that - however it plays out for the Lord's University. They never have said that they wouldn't have to approve this stuff if only we could live a higher, football-free law. I think she makes weird assumptions sometimes. I'm not a huge football fan - I enjoy an occasional game because it's fun. But I don't think it's evil, nor do I think that all football players are fornicating drunkards. One of my good friends quarterbacked for BYU and I KNOW he wasn't. But she considers them all evil.
But we're talking about TJEd. I think there is some good there. I have taken what I have found to be beneficial to my family and used it. It's huge in Utah - particularly among the Utah County homeschoolers (largest base, I think), and so I think she comes up against it a LOT...people who think it's the One, True Way to homeschool. That would be frustrating.
As for her post, she included a link that talks about the hebraic way of educating...THAT was interesting reading!
Your thoughts echo my own. I've been reading Misfit Cygnet for awhile. I have gotten so frustrated that I've sworn off reading her...but then I relent and check back in, and find that she's written something that I so totally agree with that I keep on reading. My husband and I both follow her blog. We are either really annoyed with her attitude (you're right in that what she calls satire is NOT satire - it's self-righteous condemnation a lot of times), find her totally thought-provoking although we disagree, or actually (surprisingly!!) agree with her. It definitely varies.
As for TJEd, I thought she had some valid points to make. As someone who's done quite a bit to research, attended a couple of their seminars, read a few of the books (but definitely not all), and knows some people personally who were peripherally and directly associated with the George Wythe College/University (one was a teacher there), I can tell you that she's not all wrong. They do have some problems. They are trying to make money off of this. A lot of the "educational truths" here are for income, in my opinion. I don't know that they are being dishonest on purpose. The blog post she references about George Wythe defrauding a lady out of money is not entirely accurate. If you continue on the blog she cites, and read through the comments, there is more information to give a better picture. I don't think she read the comments - or else she went looking for information and only saw what she wanted to see.
I thought her post about BYU Football was lame. I thought her post about problems in our youth program were fairly accurate.
As for TJEd...I think people who adhere to it are a little too...I don't know how to say...strict in their adherence? They equate TJEd truthfulness with Gospel truthfulness and act as though they are one and the same. They are not.
Misfit's very judgmental. I don't know how she can stand to live in a world with so many sinners, actually. :-) But sometimes she judges correctly (in my opinion). Sometimes I think she skirts the line of apostasy...kind of like her ranting about ESPN when you know it had to be approved by at least some of the Brethren. Either that, or they leave people to govern themselves and are willing to take the consequences of that - however it plays out for the Lord's University. They never have said that they wouldn't have to approve this stuff if only we could live a higher, football-free law. I think she makes weird assumptions sometimes. I'm not a huge football fan - I enjoy an occasional game because it's fun. But I don't think it's evil, nor do I think that all football players are fornicating drunkards. One of my good friends quarterbacked for BYU and I KNOW he wasn't. But she considers them all evil.
But we're talking about TJEd. I think there is some good there. I have taken what I have found to be beneficial to my family and used it. It's huge in Utah - particularly among the Utah County homeschoolers (largest base, I think), and so I think she comes up against it a LOT...people who think it's the One, True Way to homeschool. That would be frustrating.
As for her post, she included a link that talks about the hebraic way of educating...THAT was interesting reading!
and a postscript
Ok, I've spent a long time reading some other posts on that lady's site, and now I'm confused. I am still often bothered by her writing and her tone. She calls it "satire" but I find nothing witty or ironic in it---just heavy-handed and didactic instruction from what appears to be her lofty perch of "I-know-better-than-you." But . . . then there are posts I totally agree with, think are well-written, and admire her thought process in. And there are still others where I find I am nearly identical to her in practical application---i.e. our family behaves much as hers does---but for drastically different reasons. So I really don't know what to make of her. I guess I can take the good and just pass over (what I think is) the bad---much as we are supposed to do with anything we read---and which is the whole reason I disagree with her assertion that we should avoid TJEd like the plague. :) What do you ladies think?
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